General Douglas MacArthur was the Supreme Commander of the U.S. Army in the Southwest Pacific Arena and was awarded the Medal of Honor.
In his speech to the Cadets at West Point in1962 he shared with them this wisdom:
"In this day of gathering storms, as moral deterioration of political power spreads its growing infection, it is essential that every spiritual force be mobilized to defend and preserve the religious base upon which this nation is founded; for it has been that base which has been the motivating impulse to our moral and national growth. History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline. There has been either a spiritual reawakening to overcome the moral lapse, or a progressive deterioration leading to ultimate national disaster."
61 Comments
A people without virtue cannot prosper. "Wickedness never was happiness." Marriage between a man and a woman is the only moral venue for sexual intimacy. Any sexual behavior outside of marriage between a man and a woman is immoral, and adds to the decay and decline of a free society. No society can invent and implement enough laws to keep the peace and freedom, much less prosperity, in a society devoid of self-control and moral integrity. Francis Scott Key captured that sentiment when he penned our national anthem.
One vote for spiritual and moral reawakening.
Not that you guys are living in the past or anything...
He's right. He's absolutely right.
So Daughter of Eve, given your post, the Islamic Countries are more Moral and on the Rise to becoming Free Societies greater than ours since Sex outside of Marriage is outlawed.
5
So, Mike, that's a statement, orrrrrrr a question?
@Michael
The values and morals that Islam represents are not reflectant of American culture.
Our culture which is derived from and based on our Judeo-Christian values are vastly different.
@6 A statement based on hers.
@7 I agree that their Culture and Society is not a reflection on ours. However, in her post it does not state US only, or Judeo-Christian Only. She states "Societies" in a general way. There are differences in Islam and Christianity. A Large one is Islam sees that Biblical Morals ARE Laws and uses them as Such. Most Judeo-Christian Countries do not. Judeo-Christian Values are one part of our Culture, however, there are multiple other aspects to it. Our Government was based upon Multiple forms according to the Founding Fathers themselves.
@Michael,
"There are differences in Islam and Christianity"
It is due to the fact that this nation was founded by Christians that you are afforded access to the source of our freedom.
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." - Speech to the Virginia House of Burgesses, May, 1765
Patrick Henry
The founders knew their Christian faith to be a self evident truth; so much so that they pronounced the right of conscience and the free exercise thereof - the right to believe and live your belief - to be our first and most important Civil Right; enshrining it as immutable and innate under law.
The right to believe and live your belief...so if two same-sex people believe a religion that says they can get married, they should be free to do so...?
And if Christianity and its morals are self-evident, then letting others live their lives however they want shouldn't affect the abilities of parents to teach their kids Christian values...
@Randy,
My origional point was not to argue the origions of the Nation, however since that is the path it has gone so be it.
Many of the Founders were not Christian, many were. There are many Elements in the Founding Documents of our Nation that are not Christian in origin. Such as the " idea that all human beings are equal by nature". That concept came from the Roman jurist Ulpian in Roman law: "quod ad ius natural attinet, omnes hominess aequales sunt" -- according to the law of nature, all human beings are equal. He got the concept from Greek Sophist. Who banished divine activity from a universe explained by natural forces and taught that justice is an agreement among people neither to harm nor be harmed. There is also the issue of "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" which is not a Christian nor Jewish Concept.
The fact that the Founders borrowed from Multiple Religions and Multiple forms of Government is a testament to their wish for a well balanced stable Nation capable of Growth through the Centuries. This also would account for the Freedom of the American people to Belief in the Deity and Religion of their choice, or none if they so chose. There is no Religious Liberty if one Religion is subjugated by another. The Self Evident Truths that the Founders understood have been subjugated by those who wish to impose their Views. Would you like the Quotes from the Founders that state we are not a Christian Nation? There are many and I would be more than happy to provide them. You can also easily look them up on line. As for your quote, Religions other than Christianity would have no Asylum, Prosperity or Freedom of Worship if they are not forced to adhere to Christian Beliefs.
As a curiosity, I am just curious mind you. Following proper Lineage, which means going back only by the Paternal side (i.e. Father's Father's Fathers ect) Was your family hear during the Founding of the Nation? Or Immigrated after the Founding. My curiosity comes from the fact I can trace My Family, both Paternal and Maternal back over 800 years. I am the current family History Keeper. And My Family has kept its traditions. And it was here during the Founding, and fought during the Revolution. I am rather fond of History and Theology.
@Michael
You are either delusional, or sadly mistaken. Every single founding father was a self professed Christian - every single one. The Declaration of Independence clarifies in no uncertain terms that the signers were in complete agreement about who the Creator, The God of nature, and Providence is.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
Not one single founder ever stated that the United States was not a Christian nation; and I challenge you to prove otherwise.
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator." Thomas Jefferson
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all Abraham faiths that recognize the one true God; the God of Abraham. You will need more than blatant lies, falsehoods, and willful ignorance to turn these truths we hold to be self evident into a lie.
Your depravity has become more important to you than life itself.
“We have our freedom because of our faith; we do not have our faith because of our freedom”
George W. Bush
@Michael,
My father’s mother traced her ancestor to John Quincy Adams; my great Grandmother is a direct descendent of President Buchannan and even received an item from his estate as a named heir.
Both my mother's parents were born in England; my mother was born in Canada.
That quote comes from something that someone else wrote in the 1950s about Patrick Henry, but the real Patrick Henry never actually said those words.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Patrick_Henry
@Lefty,
The best you can say about that tripe is that there is some dispute, but your link only challenges the citation; it does not refute it.
"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past." - Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church, Redmond, Virginia, March 23, 1775
"That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other." - Article 16, Draft of the First Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia (Henry was a member of the drafting committee), June 12, 1776"
"This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed." - Last Will and Testament, November 20, 1798 Patrick Henry
General Douglas MacArthur knew all too well that this nation was founded on Christianity. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this truth says more about you than it does those you slander.
"This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins. Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature." Benjamin Franklin
Our country was also built over the dead bodies of Native Americans which our ancestors slaughtered. Everyone here seems to have the basic assumption that America is a country that can do no wrong, was founded on Christian principles and is only now, due to the mutual love of homosexuals, going into moral decay.
Reflect, everyone, on the true nature of America's history. First we slaughtered the natives, then we brought slaves, we denied rights to women, to blacks, to homosexuals. Am I the only one who does not want to go back to the past? We are making progress towards becoming a more moral society. I can't do anything about the sins of Americans in the past, but I sure can argue for equality now.
@Lefty,
Thank You. I had not even bothered to check the veracity of the Quote Randy used.
It comes from an 1956 article piece in The Virginian that was about Patrick Henry, not by him.
Here is the excerpt from the Article.
(“I have now disposed of all my property to my family. There is one thing more I wish I could give them, and that is the Christian Religion. If they had that and I had not given them one shilling they would have been rich; and if they had not that and I had given them all the world, they would be poor.”
Patrick Henry, Virginia,
His Will
There is an insidious campaign of false propaganda being waged today, to the effect that our country is not a Christian country but a religious one—that it was not founded on Christianity but on freedom of religion.
It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by ‘religionists’ but by Christians–not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here.
In the spoken and written words of our noble founders and forefathers, we find symbolic expressions of their Christian faith. The above quotation from the will of Patrick Henry is a notable example.) The quote Randy Used was by the Author of the Piece, not Patrick Henry, and it was an extrapolation based upon his Statement in His Will. It was first attributed to Patrick Henry was minister David Barton in his book The Myth of Separation (1988). Barton has since disavowed it, though he suggested that it was possible that Patrick Henry’s uncle really said it (no evidence for this assertion provided). It continues to be quoted as Henry’s in many books and on innumerable websites.
@Michael
The best you can offer is "no it isn't" and "so what" in defense of your rediculous assertions. Let us see what Abraham Lincoln had to say:
"Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth."
"In God We Trust" is the only official national motto of the U.S. of A.
How am I slandering anyone, Randy? I am trying to be accurate. Is that wrong?
@Randy E King
Also, in case this wasn't clear: my comment only addressed whether Patrick Henry was the actual source of that particular quote. I haven't said anything at all about whether the United States was founded on the Christian religion.
@Randy,
I do thank you for the Lineage. I find Ancestry to be interesting.
Many of the Founders were Deist. Whether you choose to accept that or not is irrelevant to me. It is what it is. I find it interesting that so many now consider the Founders to be Christian, when in the Past they were criticized for not being so. In 1831 Rev. Bird Wilson said in a highly publicized Sermon "The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [ at the time of the sermon was George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity." John Adams did begin as a Congregationlist, however he ended a Unitarian. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe were avowed Deist. George Washington was highly Critisezed for not taking communion, and he ALWAYS used the Deist terms for God in his Letters and Speeches. Thomas Paine wrote the "Age of Reason" and was a HIGHLY avowed Deist.
"What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith." -Thomas Paine "The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion." - Thomas Paine "In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it." Benjamin Frankiln "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." - Thomas Jefferson
I can provide more if you would Like Randy. I can admit there were Christian Founders and that there are Christian Elements in the Founding Documents. Can you admit there are Deist Founders and Deist concepts in the Founding Documents? Also, if it was Christian only, why is the Symbolism Masonic and eluding to Enlightenment by Knowledge and Reason instead of Christian Symbolism? I find your acrimony towards an intellectual discussion on History and Theology to be odd.
@ Lefty,
You also haven't slandered Randy or MacArthur. The only person has slandered anyone is Randy.
Hmm, I did comment on Randy's Depravity accusation against me (which is odd considering he knew nothing about me, or My Wife and 4 children, or our very family orientated life) But it seems to have hung up in moderation. *sigh*
@Michael,
Every single founding father was a self professed Christian. As for deism of the day; deism was the belief that you did not need to go to Church to worship God; equivalent to today's "Golf Course Religion" as noted on Monticello.org by the foremost experts on Thomas Jefferson.
Depravity: a corrupt act or practice
Blatant lies regarding the religion of the founding fathers is slanderous and depraved.
@Michael,
Not one of the quotes you provided had any of subjects denouncing their Christian faith. I can provide twenty quotes supporting the faith of the founders for every one of yours that was taken out of context, but let us leave it with George Washington’s Thanksgiving Proclamation:
"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"
In Africa, we are talking about climate change as a result of environmental degradation and all leaders are saying - protect and preserve the environment. In the same way if we do not preserve the family and marriage which are the basic units of our society, we are going to have societal degradation and confusion.
"Reflect, everyone, on the true nature of America's history. First we slaughtered the natives, then we brought slaves, we denied rights to women, to blacks, to homosexuals."
I in response to your fractured historical account, I suggest the book: "The 10 Big Lies About America: Combating Destructive Distortions About Our Nation" by Michael Medved.
In it, it sets the record straight. It was germs that killed off the Native Americans, 95% of them, not US military endeavors. And of all the slaves who were brought from Africa, only 20% of them arrived on North American shores. The rest were sent to South and Central America, Cuba, and the Middle East. Lastly, slavery and the restriction of rights to blacks and women were practiced long before the evil United States was ever founded. And when has it ever been illegal for gays to vote?
At least take history 101 before spewing your hatred here.
24
BAM !
THAT's gonna leave a mark.
Deism is a religious philosophy which holds that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that the universe is the product of a creator, that God never intervenes in human affairs or suspends the natural laws of the universe. That's hardly the same thing as being an athiest or rejecting Christian principles altogether.
In fact, it is clear that the founding fathers held Christianity in very high regard and respect. These Christian quotes of the founding fathers should give an overview of their strong moral and spiritual convictions which helped form the foundations of our nation and our government.
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
George Washington
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
"Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System."
John Adams
--June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
Thomas Jefferson
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
James Madison
--America's Providential History, p. 93.
"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
James Monroe
-- 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.
"I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect. They are a declaration and testimony of heavenly things themselves, and, as such, we carry a high respect for them. We accept them as the words of God Himself."
John Quincy Adams
--Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.
These Christian quotes of the founding fathers should give an overview of their strong moral and spiritual convictions which helped form the foundations of our nation and our government.
I find it Humorous in the theory that unless I provide a Set Statement that specifically states that they "Renounce Christianity" they are Christian. The other Humorous part is even if I do Provide a quote it will be disregarded . The Historical information I have provided has been either ignored, or tossed aside as "no it isn't". As for Deism being Christian, that is a Blatant Lie and I challenge you to prove it otherwise. By Claiming Deism is Christianity would be Like Claiming Judaism, Islam, and Agnostic Wicca are Christianity since they all believe in God. There would even be a case then that an Agnostic Druid would be Christian since they believed in a God and the Natural Order. There is no path in Christianity that compares to Deism. As for calling me Depraved Randy, ignorance in either History or Theology is no excuse to attempt to slander another. Would a Christian Defame Christianity? I think Not. And you OBVIOUSLY know nothing of Thomas Paine if you even TRY to claim he is Christian in ANY way shape and or form. I can continue to provide quotes, and I can have provided context for some. However, I expect civility in Conversations with people. If you are unable to dredge up even the civility of a 6 year old then I guess we will be done. Calling someone a liar is a serious charge and impinges on their Honor. I understand you are probably put out since I easily proved your Patrick Henry quote was a fake. However, it shows a lack of Moral Fiber on your part that your resorted to Slander and Name calling rather than engage is civil discussion. If you are unable to engage in Polite Discussion admit it then be silent. If you had ANY Moral bearing OR Honor and Integrity you would apologize. However, given your post I doubt it. I am willing to continue, and have a lot more information, however, I am not willing discuss Theology or History with Bratty Child.
Son of Adam, just because a Religion has some tenants or Beliefs in common with Christianity does not make it Christian. If that were true then Judaism, Islam, Wicca, Thelema, Druidism would all then be rejecting Christian principles altogether. All Religions share some common principles. This does not make them the same. As for eluding that Deism was Christian in the Day, just without church, here is a quote from Ethan Allen, "I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not." preface, Reason the Only Oracle of Man. I also find it interesting that even though many of the founders were bashed for not being Christian, as the quote by the Reverend I gave, that is now disregarded for no reason. As for quotes, there are many more.
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." -Thomas Jefferson "But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it." -- Thomas Jefferson letter to William Short, April 13, 1820 (For Randy this is Renouncing Christianity) As for Washington, Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15] "Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that Christianity than did he himself." -Thomas Jefferson, in his private journal, Feb. 1800 There are more. Speaking the Truth is neither Slander nor Defamation. They were good people. They were enlightened for their Time.
Since Randy likes posting the definition of words, I will share one too.
Intelligence:
1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
2. the faculty of understanding.
3. knowledge of an event, circumstance, etc., received or imparted; news; information.
4. the gathering or distribution of information, especially secret information.
I also suppose the FACT that many Early Founders and Presidents were Masons and Believed in Reason over Religion has also been forgotten. I happen to enjoy seeing all the Masonic Symbols in our Government. Our Nation was built One Stone at a Time.
As an afterthought, I am not claiming ANYONE is unintelligent. I Do enjoy the definition of the word. I did think it was pertinent given what I have been falsely accused of.
@Michael,
My mother’s father was a Shriner level (37)/Mason; I have his Masonic Bible. I really hate to be the one to break this to you, but Mason's consider themselves to be the decedents of the builders of King Solomon’s Temple and they are dedicated to fulfilling the prophecy of the rebuilding of said Temple and the return of the Christ.
It is evident from the quotes I posted that at least a vast majority of them had a strong faith in God and that their belief system was based upon Christianity. Even if you can find times when they dabbled in Diesm, our founding fathers depended upon Divine Guidance whent they founded this country. In spite of your protestations, the United States of America was built upon the foundation of the Christian faith and the Ten Commandments of God.
Thomas Paine: Profession of Faith, from The Age of Reason (1794):
"It has been my intention for several years past to publish my thoughts upon Religion. I am well aware of the difficulties that attend the subject; and from that consideration had reserved it to a more adva-citizens of all nations, and that at a time when the purity of the motive that induced me to it could not admit of a question, even by those who might disapprove the work.
The circumstance that has now taken place in France, of the total abolition of the whole national order of priesthood and of everything appertaining to compulsive systems of religion and compulsive articles of faith, has not only precipitated my intention, but rendered a work of this kind exceedingly necessary; lest, in the general wreck of superstition, of false systems of government, and false theology, we lose sight of morality, of humanity, and of the theology that is true.
As several of my colleagues, and others of my fellow-citizens of France, have given me the example of making their voluntary and individual profession of faith, I also will make mine; and I do this with all that sincerity and frankness with which the mind of man communicates with itself.
I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life."
Christ is not Jesus' last name; Christians believe the prophecy of the Christ has been fulfilled; whereas Jews and Muslims do not. Every single founding father was a self professed Christian; none were Jew, or Muslim. Yet here you are swearing up and down that a nation founded by devout Christians was not founded on Christianity.
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.
Lincoln's Thanksgiving Proclamation:
"It is the duty of nations, as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions [By golly, how did that get in there?] in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon. And to recognize the sublime truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations are blessed whose God is the Lord."
"It is the duty of nations, as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions [By golly, how did that get in there?] in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon. And to recognize the sublime truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations are blessed whose God is the Lord."
"just because a Religion has some tenants or Beliefs in common with Christianity does not make it Christian. If that were true then Judaism, Islam, Wicca, Thelema, Druidism would all then be rejecting Christian principles altogether. All Religions share some common principles. This does not make them the same."
The founding fathers never mentioned Islam, Wicca, Thelema, Druidism, etc. in their writings. But they did mention Christianity more than a couple times.
Son of Adam,
I have agreed that Many of the Founders were Christian. I would also agree that Christianity did influence, and most probably held the highest influence during the Creation of the Nation. However, for this to be a Christian Nation, and be Founded upon Christianity and the Ten Commandments, why then did they not ONCE Place the Words God, Creator, Jesus, or Lord in the Constitution of the U.S.? For that Document is the Basis of ALL the Laws of our Nation. Why would a Christian Nation not Mention Jesus in the SOLE Document upon which ALL the Laws and Powers of the Nation Derives? There is also the issue that a Christian Nation would not have a Law During Creation for Freedom of Religions. If it was only for Christianity it would be Freedom for Denominations. As for the Founders mentioning Islam, Wicca ect, my point was not that they mentioned them, but that they are as Christian as Deism is.
@Michael,
"why then did they not ONCE Place the Words God, Creator, Jesus, or Lord in the Constitution of the U.S."
Jefferson and Patrick Henry have already provided you with the answer:
""That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other." - Article 16, Draft of the First Constitution of the Commonwealth of Virginia (Henry was a member of the drafting committee), June 12, 1776" Patrick Henry
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator." Thomas Jefferson penned on the front pages of his Christian Bible.
By providing you unrestricted access to your God given gift of freedom they believed you would come to understand these truths they held to be self evident just as they had. The founding fathers were wicked smart; but the enemies of freedom figured out that the only way they can succeed is by closing off access to the source of our freedom.
@Son of Adam
Instead of Mr. Medved's right-wing propaganda, I recommend you learn your history from any historical textbook.
If you want to believe that our conquest of Native American lands was a morally righteous thing to do, that importing slaves was righteous and great, then fine. I'll stop trying to argue with you, because you are clearly not interested in examining and debating about the real world.
37
God IS in the Constitution, mentioned in His Covenant Name.
Were it not for the Declaration of Indpendence, there would be no Constitution. The Declaration displays God prominently.
Jon, I never said that the North American conquest or slavery was either reghteous or great. Your analysis of my remarks is just as warped, false, and as flawed as your history.
They never mentioned Deism in the Constitution either, Micheal. In fact, they were, almost without exception, Christians.
When, after the representatives who had met in 1797 to write the Constitution of the United States struggled for several weeks making little or no progress, eighty-one-year-old Benjamin Franklin rose and addressed the troubled and disagreeing convention that was about to adjourn in confusion. It seemed that their attempt to form a lasting union had apparently failed.
"I...believe that, without [God's] concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel; we shall be divided by our little partial local interest; our projects will be confounded; and we ourselves shall become a reproach and a byword down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter, from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing government by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war or conquest. I therefore beg leave to move that, henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessing on our deliberation be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business."
Benjamin Franklin then proposed that the Congress adjourn for two days to seek divine guidance. When they returned they began each of their sessions with prayer. The stirring speech of Benjamin Franklin marked a turning point in the writing of the Constitution, complete with a Bill of Rights.
Mr Incredible,
There 14 Names for God in Christianity, none of them are found in the Constitution. The closest you could would be in the the Signiture line, which stated "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". Which was used in BOTH Religious and None Religious Documents during that time period. This is the same as using B.C. and A.D. today. If an Atheist, Muslim or Wiccan wrote 600 B.C. in a document would that make them Christian? No it wouldn't. Would it make the paper the wrote that on a Christian Based Document? No it wouldn't. All of our Laws and our Government itself is based upon the Constitution. You still have not answered why a Christian Nation would ommit God end especially Jesus from the Document outlining the Nation and Government. AS for the Declaration of Independence, God is only alluded to 3 times. The first is "Natures God", which is not a standard from of Address for the Christian God. And in fact there are MANY Religions that use that SAME phrase. Deism was the most common during the Declaration. The second, was "Supreme Judge of the world". Which again would have been an odd way to phrase the Christian God during that time period. And again, all Religions believe their God is the Supreme Judge of the World. And last, is the very last sentence, which reads, "And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance of the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." Again, this would not single out Christianity, as again all religions would accept such a statement. ALL Religions and Denominations in the US at the time of the Declaration would have been willing to accept the phrasing used. The phrasing used was found most commonly in the US in Deism. The name Jesus is not mentioned once, nor alluded to once in the Declaration. Which again, would be odd for a Christian Nation to NOT mention Christ ONCE.
41
His Covenant Name is found in theConstitution. No matter how you slice it, that Name is there. I'm not interested in how many others used it in how many ways. In the Constitution, it's used the way it's used, and His Covenant Name is there.
So, the Founders, being Christian, recognized and honored Him in the Constitution.
Neither the Declaration, nor the Constitution, are "religious" documents. It's not necessary to fill the with "religious" issues since their purpose was political. That they recognized God as THe Mover and Shaker and honored His Name in the documents is enough.
37
==Christ is not Jesus' last name...==
And an attorney general is not a general.
@SoA
I'm sorry if I over-extrapolated from your response. Let me explain why.
You took issue with my quote: "Reflect, everyone, on the true nature of America's history. First we slaughtered the natives, then we brought slaves, we denied rights to women, to blacks, to homosexuals."
You responded by trying to minimize our conquest of Native American lands ("they were killed by germs") -- sure, disease played a big part, but did we not also do our fair share of slaughtering (e.g. Sand Creek Massacre and Wounded Knee)? Then you tried to minimize our role in slavery by saying we had only a percentage of the slave trade -- sure, we had a percentage, what does that have to do with my claim that "we brought slaves" and we "denied rights to blacks". You simply try to lesson the blow of the fact that we treated human beings like animals. I also never claimed that we directly denied homosexuals the right to vote. We did, up until relatively recently, maintain anti-sodomy laws, and thus violated the rights of homosexual males.
So, what part of my statement demonstrates a flawed view of our history? The "big lies" Medved tries to debunk are straw men that nobody really believes. No, the U.S. obviously does not deserve unique criticism for starting and dominating the slave trade. I don't think any significant quantity of people believe the U.S. was 100% of the slave trade or created the idea of slavery. We did, however, write that "all men are created equal", meanwhile owning slaves and treating human beings like animals. Why do you wish to minimize this point?
Mr Incredible, by Using the Term in a Signature Line Only, and then only for the Commonly accepted Formal way of wiritng the Date does not inherently make a Christian, or Christian Recognized. By using that same Logic and Reasoning, then Anton LeVay and Aleister Crowley were both Christian as they both accepted the Current form of Dates. By that definition every Person and Society who uses modern dates would then be christian. Of course, the Month of September is older than Christianity, and therefor using the same logic and reasoning you are applying, a case could then logically be presented that they also Recognized the Pagan Romans, as September is from the Roman Julian Calendar. 46 BC/BCE or 709 AUC in Roman years. You also have not answered why if it is Christian then name Jesus does not appear once in either document. It is not possible to be Christian and only reference God (in any form) and not reference Jesus ever. I do agree with you that the Documents are Political and Not religious. That does support the Fact that the Nation was founded Politically and not Religiously. That also explains why it allows for the Free exercise of all Religions, and does not endorse any particular one.
@Randy,
Having an Ancestor who was a Mason does not a Mason Make. The Masons support Reason over Religion. I am well aware of Masonic Doctrine,History, Tradition and Practices. Not all Masonic Orders are Christian, or espouse Christianity. Not all Masons are Shriners. I am also aware that there are many Masons who are NOT Christian. If you wish Christian Masons I would advise you to stay away from Minneapolis as many are not. The Triune Masonic Temple is also used by the Ordo Templi Orientis. And there is NO way possible to say they are Christian. Also, quoting Lincoln has nothing to do with a discussion about the Founders. And last, a Draft Version is not a relevant document. Only the Final Version is. The interesting thing about using quotes out of context is that it is possible that people change change positions and beliefs during their Lives. There are many writings that I did back when I had studied to enter the Catholic Seminary. Now I am a Gnostic Catholic and I study ALL Religions. If I used my earlier in life quotes I had said or written, would that make me a Christian for Life? Not likely. I seek Truth over Rhetoric and Ideology. I would also like to point out your insults are rather boorish and tiresome.
Another interesting point, is that Many of the Founders were highly against the Mixing of Religion and Politics. Europe had been torn apart for Centuries because of that combination. There are currently Groups who feel this should be based on Christian Law. Case in point, the Republic of the United States of America. Which is a Group that claims to be the "True" Government. They wish to Impose Christian Law, and the amusing thing is their Laws are almost Identical to Sharia Law. They ignore all US, State and Local Laws. They have Murdered Law Enforcement officers during a Routine Traffic Stop for Speeding. There are many more. Something currently destroying our Great Nation is this mixture of Political and Religious Ideology. I would also say the fact that those who represent us are no longer Statesman. They are now Career Politicians who are only concerned with getting re-elected. None of the Representatives in the House OR the Senate speak the Whole truth more than 50% of the Time. And most are far below that. The inability to work together, on EITHER side, and the influx of Religious Ideology is breaking our Government.
==by Using the Term in a Signature Line Only, and then only for the Commonly accepted Formal way of wiritng the Date does not inherently make a Christian, or Christian Recognized.==
And, yet, God is in the Constitution, referred to by His Covenant Name. It doesn't matter how, when, nor by whom, nor for what reason.
== By using that same Logic and Reasoning, then Anton LeVay and Aleister Crowley were both Christian as they both accepted the Current form of Dates.==
The Founders' writings show that they were Christian. The line in the Constitution doesn't make them Christian, and I didn't say it does.
== You also have not answered why if it is Christian then name Jesus does not appear once in either document.==
I did. You missed it. I'll repeat it, just for you.
Neither the Declaration, nor the Constitution, are "religious" documents. They are political documents. Yet, they recognize God and/or give credit to Him.
== It is not possible to be Christian and only reference God (in any form) and not reference Jesus ever.==
Except that Jesus was God on Earth.
== I do agree with you that the Documents are Political and Not religious. That does support the Fact that the Nation was founded Politically and not Religiously.==
Except that the Mayflower Compact tells us that the settlers came here to "advance Christianity."
== That also explains why it allows for the Free exercise of all Religions, and does not endorse any particular one.==
That's because the love of God through Christ doesn't "force" anybody. The Founders hoped that everybody would see that Christianity would inform the citizens and government.
==Many of the Founders were highly against the Mixing of Religion and Politics. ==
And, yet, in practice, they did.
@Michael,
As previously noted; Christ is a title and not all of the 3 billion people that share the Abraham faith believe that Jesus was Christ, or that the prophecy of the Christ has been fulfilled.
All Masons consider themselves to be the decedents of the builders of King Solomon's Temple; that is who the Masons are. For someone who claims to have studied in seminary school - as has my wife - you do not appear to have gleaned anything from said experience.
And what of your challenge to show that Thomas Paine was a person of faith? You claimed I knew nothing of Paine to which I proved otherwise. Do you actually think you are the first one to throw that tired old marriage corruption talking point? I have seen all of these challenges before and have built up quite a reference library capable of refuting all of your falsehoods.
@ Mr Incredible,
*And, yet, God is in the Constitution, referred to by His Covenant Name. It doesn't matter how, when, nor by whom, nor for what reason.*
Which only proves it was a common form of date. Nothing More, nothing less.
*The Founders' writings show that they were Christian. The line in the Constitution doesn't make them Christian, and I didn't say it does.*
Except even you have admitted some were Deist. So yes, many were Christian, however not all.
*Neither the Declaration, nor the Constitution, are "religious" documents. They are political documents. Yet, they recognize God and/or give credit to Him.*
That would again be any person Using the Common Date would then be Giving Credit to and recognizing God.
*Except that Jesus was God on Earth.*
This would be a separate debate about the Trinitarian. Not all Christian Denominations accept that Jesus was God.
*Except that the Mayflower Compact tells us that the settlers came here to "advance Christianity."*
That Compact has no bearing on the Forming of the Nation. It has to do with the Formation of a British Colony. You chose to omit part of the Sentence. It does say they wished to Advance Christianity, it was also for the "honor of our King and Country". Which would be King James and England.
*That's because the love of God through Christ doesn't "force" anybody. The Founders hoped that everybody would see that Christianity would inform the citizens and government.* And yet Christianity in Government had through that Point Forced people to accept its Tenets.
As for in Practice they did, well if they had chosen to Combine the two, then it would have been written as such. It was not.
*
@ Jon
This is not about my minimizing the wrongs that occurred throughout American history. This is about your maximizing these wrongs. You do so by ignoring the fact that the Judeo-Christian principles on which this country was founded on that SS"M" supporters routinely attack played no small role in abolishing slavery, a scourge that has plagued humankind for thousands of years, and advancing the notion that people should be judged by the content of their character rathar than the color of their skin.
And I grant you that there are many legitimate critisizms and condemnations over the US government's treatment of Native Americans. And the fact that we can look back on those times with the utmost sympathy for what they went through proves that the US is not as evil and as worthy of infinite contempt as you make us out to be.
For all its flaws, no other nation has led the world in the advancement of human and civil rights than the US has. There is nothing wrong with focusing on that.
This, and more, is the reason why I oppose SS"M" because it is based on the rejection of Judeo-Christian principles as "hate" and "bigotry" and the narssisistic notion that marriage should be redefined to revolve around the wants and desires of adults while the only role children play is serving a means to that end.
==...it was a common form of date. Nothing More, nothing less.==
Except that, in this context, it means more, not less, that it is in respect for God, given the Founders' writings.
==Except even you have admitted some were Deist.==
Not I.
== So yes, many were Christian, however not all.==
But most were.
==...any person Using the Common Date would then be Giving Credit to and recognizing God.==
Except that the Founders are not "any person."
The point is that God is in the Constitution and in the Declaration of Independence.
== This would be a separate debate about the Trinitarian. Not all Christian Denominations accept that Jesus was God.==
All that's important is that the Word of God says He was God on Earth.
==That Compact has no bearing on the Forming of the Nation.==
It is Foundational to the forming of this nation, giving purpose.
==It has to do with the Formation of a British Colony.==
Everything has a beginning. The Foundation of this country began with that and includes that.
==You chose to omit part of the Sentence. It does say they wished to Advance Christianity, it was also for the "honor of our King and Country". Which would be King James and England.==
However, they were starting a new life in a new land, and what they did and said about it is Foundational to this country.
==And yet Christianity in Government had through that Point Forced people to accept its Tenets.==
No, MEN forced. Lay the blame where it belongs.
== As for in Practice they did, well if they had chosen to Combine the two, then it would have been written as such. It was not.==
And, yet, they mixed the two.
Reply presently in Moderation.
Douglas MacArthur:
"History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline. There has been either a spiritual reawakening to overcome the moral lapse, or a progressive deterioration leading to ultimate national disaster."
Moral decay is at play today, as it has always been in all civilizations, but the advancement of the decay has sped-up in the past few decades in the Western Civilization.
How prescient: "progressive deterioration."