NOM BLOG

Lesbian Parents Authorize Hormone Blocking to Prevent 11-Year-Old Son's Puberty

 

The UK Daily Mail reports on a situation in California that is grabbing headlines and plenty of media attention:

The lesbian parents of an 11-year-old boy who is undergoing the process of becoming a girl last night defended the decision, claiming it was better for a child to have a sex change when young.

Thomas Lobel, who now calls himself Tammy, is undergoing controversial hormone blocking treatment in Berkeley, California to stop him going through puberty as a boy.

... At age seven, after threatening genital mutilation on himself, psychiatrists diagnosed Thomas with gender identity disorder. By the age of eight, he began transitioning.

This summer, he started taking hormone-blocking drugs, which will stop him from experiencing puberty.

Related -- Wesley J. Smith writes at a First Things blog: "Human Experimentation is the Real Issue in Stopping 'Transsexual' Boy's Puberty."

72 Comments

  1. Mike Brooks
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 10:46 am | Permalink

    This is what happens when we allow mentally ill people to adopt children.

    This is not news; it is the reason that such adoptions have been prevented for all of civilized history.

  2. Barb Chamberlan
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 11:05 am | Permalink

    A mental illness such as this boy has should be treated with psychotherapy. There's no mention in the article of him ever having therapy. Responsible people wouldn't just jump in with hormone treatments. I agree that these women must be mentally ill themselves. Otherwise they would want to help the boy rather than mangle him.

    And what kind of insane doctors would go along with this?

    While we're busy securing the southern border we should also secure the western one.

  3. Randy E King
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 11:22 am | Permalink

    Lesbian parents? They have obviously confused this poor child and now they are going to destroy him in order to appease their own guilt.

    This is State sponsored torture; when will the madness end.

  4. Ash
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 11:30 am | Permalink

    I just don't understand why gender-identity disorder is responded to in this way. I totally understand that this is a very difficult situation for the families of these children, and the children themselves. But I don't understand why some people feel that creating a false reality for the child is the solution. We don't do that for any other type of mental illness; we try to work with the person and bring them into reality. Whichever route this child goes will result in difficulty; "transitioning" will not eliminate all of the child's problems. This is not about social acceptance of a lifestyle; it is about whether professionals should acquiesce to the distortions of a person with a mental illness. This has become a politicized mental health issue; and, unfortunately, I believe it's a hostile environment for professional who would try to develop treatment options that bring clients into reality.

  5. Barb Chamberlan
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    This must be an example of the superior lesbian parenting I hear so much about.

  6. Hmm....
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

    Wow.... This site has some people who DO need theapy commenting on it, that's for sure!

    Get out of the 1900s, and into the new millennium! Your unchanged way of thinking will one day be grounds for exile!

  7. Jules L
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 1:06 pm | Permalink

    I'm transgender and call tell you there is nothing wrong with that boy. I wish I had started transitioning that young, it would have saved me a lot of pain. Telling him to stay in a male body would have been the hurtful thing to do. And no there isn't a single psycological thing wrong with me, I'm completely sane and a highly functioning member of society.

  8. Brittney
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

    The boy is who he is, no amount of therapy will change who he is. I do admit it is a bit young for them to be doing this, but if the boy feels its right then let him be who he wants to be.

  9. John
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

    I'm sure there's more to this story. I want to hear more about it.

    Some people are truly a different gender on the inside, it's important to realize that.

    Gender is both physical and cognitive. Some Females have slightly different developed brains - (tangibly different, meaning pieces of the physical brain has different sizes to it) - which cause them to be a tiny bit more masculine. Others are different.

    It's the exact same way for males.

    If you think what I'm saying is nonsense then look it up for yourselves. I feel it's important that we all educate ourselves on these sorts of topics especially when it comes to the concern of children.

  10. Ash
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

    Barb: "This must be an example of the superior lesbian parenting I hear so much about."

    Yeah. A tired claim from SSMers that is based on a faulty body of research.

  11. TC Matthews
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 2:45 pm | Permalink

    Hmm. Exile? Really? Are you so threatened intellectually by people who have a different view than you? Marriage matters. Gender matters. If you are threatened by that view, it's more a reflection on you than on the person who happens to disagree with you.

  12. TC Matthews
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 2:51 pm | Permalink

    I don't know how many people on this earth actually know much about what they want to do with their lives at the age of 11. Legal consent for sexual activity, legal age for drinking, even legal age for serving in the military is set higher than 11 for a good reason. Most of us just don't have the capability to logically assess the consequences for our choices before we're older. These women are playing games with this boy. I seriously question their judgment in making this decision for him. It's a travesty.

  13. Spunky
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 3:28 pm | Permalink

    This is a really courageous thing her parents are doing. I respect you all so much! I hope Tammy discovers her true self!

  14. leo
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

    Listing to these two women ( lesbians), Jules L, Hmm, and John, Iit like the blind leading the blind...How can anyone take sources that are out of touch with reality ( delusional) speak on another delusional situation...?

  15. Ash
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    John: "Gender is both physical and cognitive. Some Females have slightly different developed brains - (tangibly different, meaning pieces of the physical brain has different sizes to it) - which cause them to be a tiny bit more masculine. Others are different."

    I actually agree with you, John. Matter of fact, I'm usually trying to convince opponents why differences between men and women extend beyond genitalia!

    I'm reading a book on gender differences, and the author confirms how different brain structures in women can result in more "masculine" characteristics, and vice versa. I simply wish there was more innovation in the area of gender identity disorder, and that there were more solutions for children and adults that work to bring them into reality and not try to conform reality to them.

    I totally empathize with transgendered people. But if a person is distressed because their body doesn't match their inner identity, perhaps there is a better solution than chopping off body parts!!

  16. Louis E.
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

    If the brain disagrees with the chromosomally determined sex of the body,it is the brain that has a disorder,not the body."Transition",or even actions aiding and abetting it by surgeons or pharmacists,should be a felony.

  17. leo
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

    To be gay/lesbian was, has, and still is considered clinically labeled a mental illness, a delusional state of the mind, sexual and identity disorder... To try to rationalize with these people without first knowledging is not only futile, but dangerious...

  18. leo
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

    I forgot the name of the website that talks about how the LGBT groups intimidated in the Pyschiatrist Association to removing LGBT from the list of mental disorders.

  19. leo
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 4:05 pm | Permalink

    These people need serious help not acceptance...And if any of you have been paying attention to NOM's "postings", and their "opponent bloggers", you know this to be true...

  20. leo
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 4:12 pm | Permalink

    reality tells us an orange is just that!, their reality, an orange is an apple... it is possible that gay men think their having sex with a woman... I could be off on this but the problem is connected with their perception, or spirit (soul)...OK i'm thinking out load here, somebody help me...lol

  21. Mav
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Leo: "To be gay/lesbian was, has, and still is considered clinically labeled a mental illness, a delusional state of the mind, sexual and identity disorder..."

    ^ Uh, no it's not. Neither major American psychiatric/psychological association agrees with this statement, haven't for almost fifty years now.

    Ash: "A tired claim from SSMers that is based on a faulty body of research."

    ^ Oh really? You have evidence that disproves the Pediatrics 2010 study on how the children of lesbian parents out-perform the children of heterosexual parents in areas of self-esteem, academic achievement and lack of behavioral issues?

    I'd really like to see that. Link?

    That being said, as a transgendered individual myself who has chosen to NOT undergo hormones/surgery, I sort of agree that if people weren't so abusive towards their fellow human beings in enforcing the gender binary, people would not present with this level of gender dysphoria.

    However, contrary to that assertion, I know from personal experience that a large part of gender dysphoria is based in the fact that the brain does not match the body - there is cognitive dissonance there. I'm a female-to-male transgender, and I have taken tests that prove my brain is masculine on a level that surpasses clothing choice and social norms - my brain is masculine on levels like spatial recognition, empathy, and systematic cognition. Biological factors, in other words...not things that can be influenced by society.

    LGBT people exist, and we are normal. Different does not mean deviant. I am no less sane than you.

    http://www.genderfork.com

  22. Posted October 4, 2011 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

    For years gays have been telling us they were "born that way" as if that means they can't change who they are. Now, with Thomas, they are all too willing to try to change him from the way he was born, male. Why do they believe it's okay to change genders (which we are born with), but not sexual orientations?

  23. Mary Ann
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 5:12 pm | Permalink

    And if this young man doesn't go though puberty, could he sing the range and repertoire of the castrati? Brilliant move on the part of the two women raising him.

  24. mary
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

    oh Lord Jesus, please return soon!

  25. Sam Jones
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

    A man is convinced that there is something terribly wrong with his body and he wants to amputate one of his limbs. What do you tell him? Perhaps, “I understand you’re tormented by this, but you don’t amputate a perfectly healthy part of your body.”

    What if this person was diagnosed with BIID, Body Identity Integrity Disorder? This is a condition that, according to BIID.org, “is commonly manifested by a desire to have an amputation of a specific body part” – and we’re talking about a perfectly healthy limb.

    Once again, I assume your answer would be the same: “You have a psychiatric condition, and you should not try to amputate your limb, regardless of what your mind tells you.”

    Not surprisingly, in January, 2000, when Scottish surgeon Robert Smith amputated the legs of two healthy men suffering with BIDD, there was widespread outrage and his hospital put a stop to his actions before he could accommodate a third patient.

    It’s true that the men were reported to be much happier after their surgery, but I imagine we would agree that it would have been far better to deal with their mental condition rather than amputate their limbs.

    Now picture this, a boy comes to you and says, “I’m convinced that I’m a girl trapped in a boy's body and I want to have sex-change surgery and go on female hormones for the rest of my life.” Why should our response be any different?

  26. Spunky
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 5:31 pm | Permalink

    @mominvermont

    Because sexual reparative therapy causes a whole slew of mental problems. The entire idea of "messing with biology" is to become what you want to be. If people genuinely want to change their sexual preference, they can and should do so (and be warned of the risks). Similarly, if people want to change their biological sex, they should also do so (and be warned of any possible risks as well).

  27. leo
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

    @ Spunky-
    @mominvermont

    Because sexual reparative therapy causes a whole slew of mental problems-where is the source of your facts?

    What if we just outlaw changing your your body parts, remember, what you do in society will affect the mass...it was a greedy doctor who thought of this dum idea... should doctors accept payment of a person who wants to be killed because they can't bare to leave on this earth any longer, or should they offer less destructive solutions?

  28. Thomas Aquinas
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    I am lilly white, I have a fat nose, and straight blonde hair. But ever since I can remember, I've felt "black." For this reason, I will undergo racial reassignment surgery, become black and then benefit from all the affirmative action programs afforded to black people. Now, you might think that's unfair. But that's only because you mistakenly believe what makes one black is biology, or that one can trace one's blackness to genetic predecessors who were slaves. But such a genetic argument is, ironically, racist, since it connect by value to my genes.

  29. Thomas Aquinas
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    Oops. I meant to say "FLAT nose," not "fat nose."

  30. Posted October 4, 2011 at 6:48 pm | Permalink

    Tragic! We can expect more of these kinds of mental illness as long as physicians continue to deny that you are not born homosexual. This boy has obviously been confused sexually because of his parents and inwardly is rejecting his sexual identity out of love for his mothers. SICK. Poor kid. We should brace ourselves for more of this mental illness

  31. Posted October 4, 2011 at 7:01 pm | Permalink

    Did you read this!
    http://www.opposingviews.com/i/politics/2012-election/obama-gays-we-have-not-yet-begun-fight#comment-115185
    PS He got it wrong again. Its not the begining, its the end! And now we sit back and watch as prophesy uncoils along with the bedrock foundation of America with it. But Christians always survive, we always do.

  32. Spunky
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 7:42 pm | Permalink

    @leo

    I Googled "conversion therapy" and came up with the Wikipedia page about it. Scroll down to the "Medical, legal, and scientific views" section (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#Medical.2C_scientific_and_legal_views) to find a summary of the potential harm of such therapy. Also note the sources.

    Also, I will be using the term "conversion therapy" instead of "reparative therapy," because it better represents the practice and is a neutral term.

  33. Louis E.
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

    Spunky,if what you WANT is WRONG,then there's no defense for pursuing it.
    Mav,that your disorder exists does not make it normal,and neither does intimidating the professional establishment into abandoning credibility on the topic.That study of children brought up by lesbians had feminine influence as a measure of performance,and "self-esteem" can be a dangerous thing when taken to excess.

  34. Posted October 4, 2011 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

    So, if this was a child of a heterosexual couple (faced with the same dilema and chosen path), NOM never brings this up, right????

  35. Sam Jones
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

    Spunky,

    Homosexual behavior results in numerous health problems that far outweigh the "potential harm" of conversion therapy. This includes increases in AIDS, other STDs, colon and rectal cancer, and hepatitis. According to the Center for Disease Control, the vast majority of all known sexually-transmitted AIDS cases in 2009 were the result of male-to-male sexual contact. Moreover, gay and bisexual men account for more than 60 percent of all syphilis cases.

  36. wow
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 10:54 pm | Permalink

    Wow this is sad. When has it come to this? What is happening to this world? I may not fully understand but this is wrong. I'm not stuck in the old ways it's just knowing that it is wrong. Yes, he has the every right to do whatever he wants to his body, but before stepping into anything like this right away he should see a psychologist.

  37. Louis E.
    Posted October 4, 2011 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    Benching Mipuang...if the couple were in a proper (male-female) marriage,their indulgence of their child's disorder would still be abusive,but it wouldn't be on topic for NOM,which is about preserving the necessary character of marriage rather than upholding people's obligation to acknowledge their genetically determined sex.

  38. Donna
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:14 am | Permalink

    Just look at how unhappy that kid looks. He needs psychological help. I don't understand why if a child is feeling he/she is in the wrong body for their sex they aren't given hormones for their DNA instead of the opposite case. Perhaps more testosterone for this little boy would be a whole lot better than estrogen! This is unbelieveable at age 11. This is child abuse.

  39. Spunky
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:19 am | Permalink

    @Sam Jones

    You are correct, but abolishing homosexuality is not the way to fix these problems. First, you should say "irresponsible homosexual behavior among males" results in the spread of HIV and other STI's. When MSM use protection and have sex with men they know are infection-free, there is no need to fear STI's.

    Anal cancer is something MSM need to worry about (although it's still rare--70-144 per 100,000), but again, most of these cases are a result of HPV, which can be prevented with safe, responsible sex. See http://aids.about.com/od/otherconditions/a/analca.htm for details.

    Also, none of what you wrote applies to lesbian women. When you throw in conversion therapy, which seems to have a 3% success rate (see Shidlo, Schroeder, 2002), it is clear that attempting to rid people of homosexual desires is not a good way to fix anything.

  40. TC Matthews
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Abolishing homosexuality is poor english. To abolish something has legal connotation, the forcible stoppage of behavior. That is not at all what is at issue in this conversation, either between you and Sam Jones or the marriage debate nationally.

    If people want to work on changing their same sex behavior, I say, Good for them. Who are you to judge their desires and efforts? If they don't want to change their same sex behavior, great for them. It's none of my business. However, when you want to force that behavior into the public domain, demanding the redefinition of marriage as a means to obtain societal approval on your actions, I will disagree with you and work to stop your efforts every time.

  41. Lisa
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:35 am | Permalink

    Your unchanged way of thinking will one day be grounds for exile!

    ^ The icing on the cake. Folks, when these people tell you what they want to do please believe them. They've been telling us all along and we have found their demands so incredibly far-out that we haven't taken them seriously nor those who want to protect our society from such intentions. But incrementally due to our apathy we have arrived at this point where cases like that of Thomas Lobel are becoming more frequent. Let's not wait for the day when we are forced to leave our nation because we refuse to kowtow to the family re-enginering demands of the gay lobby groups.

  42. Little man
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 1:50 am | Permalink

    "Some people are truly a different gender on the inside"... Let's begin by proving that. Then we would not be having all the debate nationwide. How does gender "feel on the inside"? So what? Being a sensitive person doesn't make you a different gender.

  43. Sam Jones
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 4:13 am | Permalink

    Spunky,

    I never said anything about "abolishing homosexuality" anymore than I advocate abolishing smoking or drinking. But that does not mean that we should promote and encourage such unhealthy activities.

    And the research that has been conducted with respect to lesbians does not yield good news either. Lesbians experience many more health problems than heterosexual women. The Gay and Lesbian Medical Association admits that lesbians have the richest concentration of risk factors for breast cancer than any subset of women in the world., have higher risks for cervical cancers, are more likely to be obese, and use more tobacco, alcohol, and illicit drugs.

    Thus, promoting and encouraging homosexual behavior does not not seem to be a good way to deal with this issue at all. In fact, it does nothing but contribute to the spreading of disease and death amongst its victims.

  44. Sam Jones
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 4:16 am | Permalink

    "So, if this was a child of a heterosexual couple (faced with the same dilema and chosen path), NOM never brings this up, right????"

    If you are aware of any heterosexual couple who would do something this insane and reprehensible to their own child, please let us know.

  45. Equal
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 6:34 am | Permalink

    It is apparent The Adversary has the NOMbies in his clutches. The hate that spews from them on these forums is enough to make people physically ill just to see it. Thank goodness these posts all get copied and archived so that the courts and the SPLC can see the animus.

  46. TC Matthews
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 8:22 am | Permalink

    "It is apparent The Adversary has the NOMbies in his clutches."

    And here I thought you weren't religious. hmph.

  47. Ash
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 8:49 am | Permalink

    Mav: "Oh really? You have evidence that disproves the Pediatrics 2010 study on how the children of lesbian parents out-perform the children of heterosexual parents in areas of self-esteem, academic achievement and lack of behavioral issues?"

    This is my first time hearing of the 2010 study, but, like all of the other lesbian parenting studies that were debunked in 2001 by Lerner & Nagai, as well as Steven Nock, it relies on the mother's self reports, and the sampling compromises its generalizabilty. In addition, one of the researchers, Gartrell, was the author of another lesbian parenting study that was debunked by Lerner and Nagai:

    http://marriagelaw.cua.edu/publications/nobasis.pdf

    One HUGE red flag is your use of the term "heterosexual parents." Most of the studies compare lesbian mothers to heterosexual single mothers. And, let's be honest, the children of single mothers are not a hard group to beat in terms of "self-esteem, academic achievement and lack of behavioral issues." Thus, I don't understand how SSMers can gather that lesbian parenting is "superior" from these studies.

    But even if a lesbian parenting study comes along that is top of the line in terms of research methodology, and is favorable for lesbian parenting, it's going to take a lot more than one for the two-women family structure to overthrow the reigning champion: the conjugal family. And extending any successful results of lesbian parenting to gay male parenting is disingenuous at best.

    The AAP is losing credibility by using such faulty research to endorse policy positions.

  48. Ash
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 8:57 am | Permalink

    Spunky: "When you throw in conversion therapy, which seems to have a 3% success rate (see Shidlo, Schroeder, 2002), it is clear that attempting to rid people of homosexual desires is not a good way to fix anything."

    Dr. Nicolosi of NARTH sent a scathing letter to those who published this study, noting that the researchers, Shidlo and Schroeder, recruited clients for this study by asking them to help "document the damages of homophobic therapies." The sample was not random, and it's obvious that the researchers came into this with a bias and agenda. NARTH was kind enough to include a photograph the news advertisement; and they say that Shidlo and Schroeder are "gay activists."

    http://narth.com/2011/07/activist-researchers-misuse-studies-finding-harm/#more-2009

  49. Randy E King
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 10:21 am | Permalink

    Every single pro-gay research paper has been compiled by same-sex practitioners. Basing your "science" on questions asked to individuals that have a vested interest in the outcome of a given subject is politics; not science.

    Newsflash:

    95% of all illegal immigrants have no recollection of having made a choice to immigrate illegally. Therefore; denying amnesty to illegal immigrants is deemed bigoted.

  50. leo
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:37 pm | Permalink

    @ Ash

    Shidlo and Schroeder are "gay activists-who conducted the CT study-as I stated before, this is another case of the blind leading the blind scenario...how can rationalize with those who are irrational and immune to logic and reality; how can a person who believes he/she is overweight at 100 lbs, and 5'11, believe that another person at 6', and 145 lbs, is under weight, not possible.

  51. TC Matthews
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:41 pm | Permalink

    Good info Ash. Thanks.

  52. Spunky
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    @Sam Jones

    Yes, lesbian women have a higher risk for breast cancer, among other things, but it seems that their sexual behavior is not the cause of these problems. See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10608668 for more details. Family history more likely is the culprit. And NARTH doesn't have the right to accuse anyone of being biased.

    And I shouldn't have used the term "abolish," but rather "converting or repressing homosexuality."

  53. TC Matthews
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Do non alcoholics "repress" alcoholism?

  54. Ash
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

    Spunky, NARTH didn't "accuse" them. They produced an actual advertisement which showed that the researchers had an interest in casting conversion therapy in a negative light. You can't get much better than "help us document the damages of homophobic therapies."

  55. Bryce K.
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 1:04 pm | Permalink

    No, TC Matthews, if they did, they wouldn't be alcoholics. But your point? Homosexuality is not alcoholism. Homosexuality in itself does not cause harm. Alcoholism does. There's a difference. Get that through your skull.

  56. Mike Brooks
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

    Actually, Bryce, one can be an alcoholic and not drink, i.e., the condition in and of itself does not cause harm. Similar to homosexuality, though I'd argue that there are inherent psychologically harmful aspects to adopting the homosexual label regardless of whether or not one participates in the behavior associated with the label; psychological issues such as, e.g., not feeling "normal" because one does not choose to participate in the most basic of human functions: reproduction.

  57. Daughter of Eve
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

    "Homosexuality in itself does not cause harm."

    When does it?

  58. Little man
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 3:11 pm | Permalink

    "there isn't a single psycological [sic] thing wrong with me"...

    How would he/she know?... The patient becomes the Psychiatrist.

  59. Louis E.
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Alcoholism and homosexual orientation are disorders,drunkenness and same-sex sexual activities are misbehaviors toward which those disorders dispose their victims.

    NARTH is too sympathetic to the "gay" for my liking.

  60. Fedele Razio
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 6:28 pm | Permalink

    How can it be a child is given hormones if he's not illed? Shouldn't the police step in and save this child?

  61. Fedele Razio
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    Spunky, Narth is providing help to adult people wanting it.

    You just should accept that there is people who has different beliefs, and want different things, than you.

  62. Fedele Razio
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 6:30 pm | Permalink

    "So, if this was a child of a heterosexual couple (faced with the same dilema and chosen path), NOM never brings this up, right????"

    If you are aware of any heterosexual couple who would do something this insane and reprehensible to their own child, please let us know, and call the police.

  63. Spunky
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 8:37 pm | Permalink

    OK, let's clear up a few things.

    @Fedel Razio: I won't have any problem with people seeking conversion therapy. Please see post #26.

    @Ash: Thanks for directing me to the site. I did some more research and confirmed NARTH's statements, so I should not have considered the conversion rates of other studies. Spitzer conducted another study in 2001, but there have been objections on "numerous ethical and methodological grounds" (see the Wikpedia page on conversion therapy), so I didn't feel comfortable just quoting that, either. I also wanted to reference the study NOM is currently promoting, but not much is known about it since only a summary has been released. So I went with what seemed the most established.

    However, while the Shidlo and Schroeder study isn't a good reference for success rates of conversion therapy, it is an excellent source of the type of depression subjects feel after undergoing such a process. I couldn't find an exact statistic on the depression rate, but given the sheer number of mentions in the study, I wouldn't recommend conversion therapy to anyone I knew.

  64. Spunky
    Posted October 5, 2011 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

    @ Sam Jones

    If gay people are trying to prevent infections and disease, conversion therapy seems to be a poor way of accomplishing this. Of course, people can do whatever they want, but there are many practical and direct methods of preventing disease. Some examples:

    1) Don't have unprotected sex. This reduces the risk of contracting AIDS, syphilis, and HPV. Gay men without HPV are *much* less likely to contract anal cancer.
    2) Get regular pap smears to catch cancer early.
    3) Don't engage in anal sex.

    Now, when considering the negative side effects of conversion therapy (which seem to occur a significant amount of the time, certainly more often than the 70-144 in 100,000 occurrence of anal cancer and 522-989 in 100,000 of new HIV infections), I don't see how your assertion is correct. Clearly, conversion therapy hurts people mentally more than it helps prevent disease.

    AND with that I'm done. I've taken this thread far off topic. Feel free to respond, but I'm done posting.

  65. Sam Jones
    Posted October 6, 2011 at 2:23 am | Permalink

    "Now, when considering the negative side effects of conversion therapy (which seem to occur a significant amount of the time, certainly more often than the 70-144 in 100,000 occurrence of anal cancer and 522-989 in 100,000 of new HIV infections), I don't see how your assertion is correct. Clearly, conversion therapy hurts people mentally more than it helps prevent disease."

    Regardless of your opinion of conversion therapy, I still see no reason for the government or anyone else to deny or prevent it for anyone who wishes it, whether it is to get help to get off of drugs, alcohol, homosexuality, or any other vice. That would be a clear violation of the right of self determination.

  66. Bruce
    Posted October 6, 2011 at 11:39 am | Permalink

    Thanks, Spunky, for pointing out the fact that HIV is not the direct cause of being gay. Gardasil is also an option, which effectively eliminates the risk of certain cancers.

  67. Louis E.
    Posted October 6, 2011 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    Bruce,"being gay" is caused by falling for irrational arguments purporting to justify same-sex sex,which produce the condition in those who are themselves prone to desiring to engage in such acts.It's not a viral condition.The cure is simple realization that anyone's same-sex attraction makes no difference to EVERYONE's obligation to consider only members of the opposite sex if interested in potential sexual partners.

  68. Bruce
    Posted October 6, 2011 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    I misspoke. I meant to say HIV is not directly caused by being gay. HIV is the result of a virus, which can is transmitted by certain sexual activities with an infected invidiual. Spunky correctly pointed out that gay men (straight people, too, for that matter) can drastically reduce if not effectively eliminate that risk. Being heterosexual doesn't immunize one from the risk of HIV.

    With all due respect, Louis, you seem to understand absolutely nothing about sexual orientation.

  69. Mav
    Posted October 6, 2011 at 3:43 pm | Permalink

    "If you are aware of any heterosexual couple who would do something this insane and reprehensible to their own child, please let us know, and call the police."

    ^ Actually there are tons of loving HETEROSEXUAL parents who support early-age transition for their transgendered children (out of concern for their childrens' psychological well-being).

    And thank God for them.

  70. Sam Jones
    Posted October 6, 2011 at 4:31 pm | Permalink

    "Actually there are tons of loving HETEROSEXUAL parents who support early-age transition for their transgendered children (out of concern for their childrens' psychological well-being). And thank God for them."

    Could you please name them so I can report them to the police, or at least alert child protective services? Because bodily mutilation is NOT the way to deal with mental conditions.

  71. Louis E.
    Posted October 6, 2011 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Mav,all parents failing to block "transition" are harming their children equally,regardless of sex or sexual orientation.

    Bruce,you're the one drawing wholly unfounded inferences from the incidental fact of sexual orientation (which has no bearing whatsoever on sexual dimorphism in a species determining opposite-sex sexual activity to be exclusively normative for that species).

  72. P. Edward Murray
    Posted October 8, 2011 at 3:02 am | Permalink

    I thought child abuse was illegal?

    I guess not:(